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Easy tweaks for game balancement Options · View
Vonatar
Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2012 3:59:19 PM
Rank: Lappedykker
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2008
Posts: 470
Location: Italy
Hi,
I would like to suggest some little tweaks for game balancement.
I know that devs are no more developing, so it has no sense to hint at possible developments that require coding. Keeping this in mind I anyway have some ideas that could improve the game and require just a few minutes effort from devs.
Before trying to ask them I would like to discuss about these ideas - and collect other ones - with other players, especially with expert players that already have a deep knowledge about game balancement.

Now, what I would like to suggest is:

1) Economy. When you have a metropolis there is no choice about taxes: the smartest one is to keep them at noble, even if it is two levels more than the suggested level for the metropolis. Devs could fix it, giving some sense to this choice in two different ways, and both them are very easy to develop: a) Make bigger people loss when you are two levels over the suggested tax level. Actually I have around 8000 people in my homestead, and I always used noble taxation in last 10 seasons. Of course, I have a lot of glorypoints, but 8000 people is anyway too much for such a harsh taxation. b) Make gold per person revenue of lower level taxation higher, closer to 1 per 10 person as it is for noble taxation.

2) Ranger title. It's too easy to reach this title. If you take a look at my roster you can understand. I usually have 30 or more heroes in my roster, and all them reach ranger title as they arrive at level 6-7. I would suggest two very little tweaks: bring from 6 to 7 or 8 the number of different monster that must be killed for "The dependable" achievement and from 55 to 60 the level for the "Affirmation" achievement.

3) Weapons. Battle staffs are too strong. I'm not so expert with other weapons to state if there are other unbalanced weapons, but I am totally sure that battle staffs are too strong. They offer by far the best defence, and since they are very precise and fast they also do a quite high damage amount: in many battles my best battle-staffers deals something like 240-250 damage. I would like very much the idea of battle staff as a tactical weapon, but actually it is not so: the best thing you can do is to use 4 or 5 battle staffers. I would like a tweaks like this one: a) 25% reduction of damage dealt by a battle staff. b) Bring the barrier speciality from 2 to 3 free blocks. c) Increase the effect of shaft of shock (actually it seems that the time the other opponent is shocked is zero). In this way the 25% penalty makes really hard to play with 5 battle staffers, while you can use some battle staffers in two different ways: as a wall (using the barrier speciality), if you are able to make your opponent target them or in order to make quite ineffective a very strong opponent (using a couple of battle staffers with shaft of shock against him).

All these things would be really easy for devs, they just have to change some numbers in the code.
I would like to know if you agree with these ideas and if you have other ideas. We could collect them and then try asking to devs.

Let start the "Pot of gold revolution"!! :-)
Gauss
Posted: Friday, November 09, 2012 11:08:42 PM
Rank: Lappedykker
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/20/2007
Posts: 178
My immediate thoughts on the issues you've presented.

1) I'd agree that this needs some tweaking. Using the 'suggested' level of taxation is simply unsustainable at the lower end of the Metropolis level. I'd like some input from lords who have higher pop, especially 10000 or more.

a) I don't think this is a very good solution. Implementing it would likely result in some players (myself among them) simply ending up with a lower population
level.

b) This would be a better solution in many ways. As it is currently the only way to sustain a Metropolis on the lowest tax levels is to be consistently succeeding at high level
hunts and quests. Not only is this heavily RNG dependent, but it means you can't afford to send lower level heroes out as much.

Here's another potential tweak.
c) Increase the population needed to move upward in size. For example, make 'City' require 6000 pop and 'Metropolis' 9000 pop (and scale the lower sizes accordingly).
This would mean that when you reach the homestead sizes that punish you for not lowering the tax level you have a larger tax base to draw from.


2) The 'easiness' of the Ranger title I feel comes from the fact that there is only one truly difficult achievement needed for it -- Affirmation. As such, getting Ranger consistently is mostly a measure of 'Have you found Lyktemann yet.' While I wouldn't oppose an increase in the number of kills needed for The Dependable, I suggest instead changing its mechanic from 'kill x monsters' to 'gain x total respect.' This would provide Lords with their choice of racking up a sizable number of kills from easier monsters or killing fewer strong monsters.

An additional, minor tweak I'd like to see is a change to the 'Into the Wild' achievement. As it is this ridiculously easy, especially when we've already got a 'kill one monster' achievement in Familiar Ground. I'd like to see it changed to 'Kill a monster in each habitat other than the preferred one.'

3) I agree that the battle staff is proving to be rather overpowered. I'm not really seeing a simple way to change it other than 'nerf stickies, buff real weapons' as Tuul would say.
Vonatar
Posted: Saturday, November 10, 2012 12:16:01 AM
Rank: Lappedykker
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2008
Posts: 470
Location: Italy
Just some little points, that I think we should keep always in mind: ideas must be tweaks that are very very easy to develop, otherwise they will be just dream, as devs are no more developing the game.

For instance, in your ideas:

1c) Ok, easy to develop, just a change in numbers for different homestead sizes.

2) I like very much both ideas (really very much), but I'm not so sure they are so easy to be coded by devs: 'gain x total respect.' and 'Kill a monster in each habitat other than the preferred one.' means some deeper coding than changing some numbers in the formulas. Of course, if for devs are ok they would be really great, but I would not have too high expectations about it.


Let start the "Pot of gold revolution"!! :-)
kartofius al andalus
Posted: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:11:29 AM

Rank: Lappedykker
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/8/2012
Posts: 193
as relatively new lord i don't know anything about 1 and 2, but i agree with 3 :) my heroes use only battle staffs and are pretty successful against much higher level heroes - also proposed changes sound good to me
Llorente
Posted: Monday, November 12, 2012 8:33:43 PM
Rank: Lappedykker staff
Groups: Administration , Member

Joined: 8/28/2007
Posts: 2,190
Location: Kgs. Lyngby, Denmark
Hi all,
Thanks for your suggestions and ideas. As Vonatar mentioned then we're not currently working on Pelantas - we just maintain it. But the current "rules" and weightings are not something we made just before stopping the development, but they'd been in effect as they currently are at least a year (and most of them more!) before we stopped measuring and tweaking.

We've made extensive calculations and drawn a hell of a lot of statistics to make sure that the different weapons and settings are weighted equally to ensure a game where you can be successful using different strategies. By changing small parameters based on intuition we might throw off the balance or create other unwanted and unforeseen effects in the game. Therefore I do not think that we'll make the changes you propose. We actually (still) care a lot about our game and we're very proud that it's still going strong even without our intervention, and if we were to make changes like the ones you suggest, we'd want to make the calculations and look at the statistics to make sure that we didn't destroy more than we helped.

To address the specific ideas:
1) Economy.
This is actually done on purpose and is not something we want to change. You can make do the "allowed" tax when you have a large population if you perform well on the quests and hunts, but as you correctly say, then you have to use your high level heroes which will impact your progress elsewhere. Of course you can set it at noble, but you will then lose population each week and will have a hard time gaining population unless you do well on hunts, which gets harder and harder since the number of new creatures will be less and less as you progress. After multiple years in the top of the ranking - population wise - I've tried a few different tactics, and I've been able to sustain my homestead in different ways when I wanted to excel at one part of the game or another.

2) Ranger title.
Yes, some of the achievements are fairly easy to achieve, but looking at the number of rangers in the game certainly tells me that it's not too easy. A lot of teams have a hard time using their heroes on harder hunts as they most certainly will be away from the arena 2-3 weeks, which requires a very diverse teams to cope with. We have - on purpose - made the different achievements - and titles - of very different difficulty so that some achievements can be gained quickly and without too much hassle whilst others require many months of planning and a dash of luck to achieve.

3) Weapons.
The different weapons all have their positive and negative sides, and the weighing of these and their specialities are probably what we've spent most time adjusting. It's very easy to believe that one weapon is superior to the rest when you find a good strategy that works for you and maybe encounter opponents that choose wrong weapons and tactics to counter yours, but this doesn't mean that one is ultimately superior. Looking at the statistics post battle over time actually shows that each of the weapons over time deal about the same damage and provide the same defence. The main difference is in how regular they are; the battle staff is very consistent and might seem to never fail, whilst the morning star has a huge damage range meaning that in some battles it will be clearly outranked by the battle staff, but sometimes it deals twice as much and therefore makes up for the lack.
Overall the weapons actually are very similar, but this of course depends on the situation and how your team is set up.

We're not going to make any changes now, but please keep discussing these topics and let us know once in a while if we should take a look at the forum and reply. I don't regularly check in and read up, but I will of course answer questions if needed.
And as I said: We're still very proud of Pelantas and are happy that the game is still running. And we might do some changes at some point.

Cheers!

Llorente - The looming omnipotent presence, master of the wind and lead developer

Path to Pelantas - a fantasy browser-based game (PBBG)
Okikitikatel
Posted: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:58:54 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/23/2012
Posts: 120
I would like to discuss the staff issue a bit more. I'm new in Pelantas, but still... :)

Looking only at the damage output isn't quite correct. I think the following issues have to be considered:

1) Weapon speed IS moral. Faster weapon hits more often and inflicts more moral damage.
Possible fix would be to bound the physical and moral damage. Preferably in a non-linear way (inflicting
1-1-1 physical damage should give less moral damage than inflicting 3-0-0 damage).

2) The stats needed to make a decent damage output are not equal for the staff and for the other weapons.
Therefore, low-mid level heroes have hard time warring with other weapons OR questing/hunting.

3) The defensive bonus is meant to balance the damage output, but have de-balancing effect over the
availability of the heroes. Especially for low-mid level ones. This, combined with point 2), makes
staff-heroes level up faster, than non-staff heroes.

Anyway, i like the "if you can't beat them, join them" philosophy :) If winning became my goal in
this game (it isn't yet, having fun is what i log in for) and if my research points out that the staff
is THE weapon (i simply have neither data nor experience to back up such claim), then i'll alter
my strategy accordingly.
Vonatar
Posted: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 7:27:11 PM
Rank: Lappedykker
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2008
Posts: 470
Location: Italy
Okikitikatel wrote:

Anyway, i like the "if you can't beat them, join them" philosophy :) If winning became my goal in
this game (it isn't yet, having fun is what i log in for) and if my research points out that the staff
is THE weapon (i simply have neither data nor experience to back up such claim), then i'll alter
my strategy accordingly.


Ok, but it is quite boring. And I think that none can say I'm saying that battle staffs are too powerful because I'm wining.
If you see at division I top teams quite all them use battle staffs, battle staffs and again battle staffs. Llorente is right when he says that damage from different weapons is balanced, but defence is not! You can try to use a morning star (it is as easy to use as battle staffs for middle-level heroes) in order to search a 350 damage, and this is fine... if you are able to avoid that your opponent target him. But battle staffers in average make the same damage (with minor variance) AND offer much better protection.

Let start the "Pot of gold revolution"!! :-)
Okikitikatel
Posted: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 9:01:57 AM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/23/2012
Posts: 120
I somehow disagree, that the defense is battle issue. I have no reason not to believe Llorente, when he says
that the damage output is more or less equal. What he says means that the defense balances the damage.
If the staff inflicts 200 average damage, morning star will inflict 200 average damage as well. The added
moral damage is the real problem in the battle.

The defense, when the hero is equipped with staff, disrupts the gameplay. For these 200 average damage,
staff heroes need less stats than the other heroes. Which means, that the staff hero is effectively more skilled
than a hero with the same SOA and level, but wielding another weapon. And that is valid until all relevant skills
for not staff heroes are maxed out.

So, if i want non-staff battle hero, i should level him strictly as battle hero. No quests, no hunting and marking
just the relevant skills for raise, which in turn means less SOA per level.

To sum it up, the staff weapon doesn't need battle tweaks. It needs gameplay tweaks. For example, it should
require much more training points for utilization. And the battle moral issue should be addressed as well.
Tronk Passion
Posted: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 6:15:30 AM
Rank: Newbie
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2015
Posts: 5
I have 2 topic to say:
1) For newbie like me, I really need battle staff at current condition, good proficiency and good protection especially when battle against tough lord. Because my heroes average level are 7 and below, so when facing tough lord I need to reducing damage received by my heroes and at the same time high number of hits by battle staffer will give more experience to my heroes.

If not using staff, my heroes will rarely hits his targets because of low level, and hard to leveling up and catch-up the strong lord. It also increased the death to my heroes and hard to cover for others even like hunting, and quest. Can you imagine if my highest level heroes around lvl 7 all 5 death in every battle against tough lord and for the next battle need to use them again or use the lowest level heroes with high HP.

So the best way to reducing the damage is by using battle staffer, and improving the economy and population slowly. I think other newbie have the same thinking with me.

2) If we are experience/strong lord and think battle staff is over power, than we can figure the way to beat battle staff, that's means we entering new level. Can imagine how good and strong that lord if he entering that level, Just an idea :)
Curulin
Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 8:16:41 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 85
When facing a superior opponent in battle, I don't want my heroes to get killed, so I'm sending 5 cannon fodder heroes (low level, not in training) to the fight. If you don't have any of those, you can get them for 1 gold at the market.
As to your idea about changing the battle staff, forget it. There is no more development for this game, so there will be no more changes, you have to live with what you've got.
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